Ringless Rivers Retires
I know some folks have been waiting on this one so here you go.
Rivers did the smart thing and hung up his cleats after one last attempt at glory fell short in Indy. It was a valiant attempt and while it fell short it was fun to root for the ol’ kid factory one last time. He looked old though, his final passes in the playoffs falling short. He hung it up at the right time, unlike some members of the ’04 class.
Rivers and Eli are going to be tied together forever whether they want to be or not. Whether it is fair or not. Rivers will undoubtedly be used in the Eli Hall of Fame argument as both an argument for and against Eli. As someone who has reluctantly come to the conclusion that I don’t think Eli quite deserves it, Rivers absolutely doesn’t, because he’s had basically the same career but without the post-season success. If Eli gets in, should Rivers get in? I’m not sure, because the championships matter and Rivers doesn’t have them. If Eli gets in, I’d be fine with Rivers getting in. If Eli doesn’t and Rivers does, that would irritate me, because in all honesty the two of them are basically the same QB in a broad sense.
At their best, I think Rivers and Eli were evenly matched. They were also both pretty bad when they were at their worst. But where Rivers had the edge was his base level of consistency. He didn’t fluctuate wildly as Eli did, he was more reliable. Rivers would consistently perform on the lower end of the top tier of QBs. He’d never be the best or quite sniff it, but he’d always be in the top 10 and hovering close to the top 5, sometimes sneaking in. Eli didn’t manage that nearly as often. But outside the regular play consistency and the championships, the two of them read like case studies of the same guy in different scenarios.
Rivers didn’t have very good or consistent coaching. Eli did, at least for the first half of his career. Rivers had significantly better weapons like VJax, Gates, Keenan Allen, and LdT. Eli’s best weapons never lasted long. Tiki & Toomer were mostly out by Eli’s first seasons, Cruz/Nicks/Shockey/Smith all got hurt so fast, and Plax, his only true partner in crime, shot himself during his peak. I would have killed for Eli to have had an Antonio Gates. None of Eli’s skill position friends are HoF worthy. Eli played in a huge market, Rivers in a forgotten corner. Eli would have all of his successes and failures broadcast to the nation, Rivers would have his greatness and his failures easily ignored. They are both known for making weird faces. Eli was an emotionless humunculous, Rivers was overly animated cartoon character. Eli is known for his interceptions and led the league a few times, but Rivers was no slouch in the occasional fuckup department and led the league himself once.
Rivers was hilarious and genuinely underappreciated. Chargers fans will defend him to the death and are probably furious at me for even suggesting that he wasn’t better than Eli across the board but I’m fine with that. He was the kinda guy you love and defend the same way Eli was my guy. I will miss his stupid tantrums. I will miss his goofy energy and refusal to curse. I will miss his bolo ties and his fleet of children. I will miss his weird shotput throwing motion that looked terrible but somehow worked. I do wish that he and Eli weren’t so intrinsically intertwined and he could be appreciated on his own merits outside of the draft drama that brought them against each other. Philip Rivers was one of the best characters we had for the past 15 years, and the league will be lesser without him there, shouting WOOO when the Chargers win. Godspeed, marmalard.
I will not do a retirement comic for Schaub. He does not deserve one.
When Ben inevitably retires, do you plan to do a comic for him? If so, I request that one thing be done… BUMBLEBEN!
Rivers deserves a nod, maybe not the Hall, but a nod. Also, put in Don Coryell you monsters.
“he’s had basically the same career but without the post-season success.”
Eli’s HoF pitch is *exclusively* built on his post-season success, so comparing the two without including that is like taking two wheels off of a car and then saying it’s basically the same as a motorcycle.
IMO, HoF selections are similar to MVPs, who are picked with little consideration of how valuable they are; they roll with the dude who has the gaudy stats. The hall is similar, but Super Bowl Rings become the worthiness tokens. Is it fair? Not really. But it’s the way they generally roll.
I don’t care enough to look up the exact stats, but Eli is one of 2 or 3 guys ever with multiple Super Bowl MVPs, he’s one of 2 or 3 guys ever who won a Super Bowl without a Top… 5 defense was it? Peyton is on that list with him. Maybe it was without a Top 10 defense? His 4th quarter comebacks are legendary, and his 2011 season, statistically, was epic, and both Super Bowl runs are something Rivers has never matched in terms of impressiveness. He had some moments, but never that large. Playing on one leg in a playoff loss to NE was his crowning glory. Yes, Eli’s lows were lower, but the highs were absolutely higher. Philip Rivers was consistently ok. Eli was sometimes mediocre, but those few times he rose up, dude was amazing.
That being said, IDGAF if either of them get in, because the HoF is as subjective and useless a thing as you’ll find. I mostly would just find it hilarious because of all the crybabies HoFers who would be upset about the “sanctity” of the blah blah blah.
Outside of Phil having no championships, he doesn’t have a single all-pro award. Having zero all-pros without a championship to hang your hat on is a near death sentence when all you can point to are nine pro bowls and a comeback player of the year award.
Sure, he’s got high stats too, but it’ll be nearly impossible to argue in his favor when he’s retiring shortly after the Mannings and shortly before Brady, Rodgers, hell even Ryan has a better argument.
Agreed. I think the only real argument Rivers has in favor of the HoF is a logic fallacy (don’t ask me to name it, because I’m bad at that). Basically, “if Eli = HoF, and Rivers’ Reg Season Stats > Eli’s, then Rivers = HoF.”
And as time goes on and stats get inflated more and more, ol’ Phil is going to look statistically less and less impressive. The extra game alone is going to allow a bunch of mediocre players today to pile on stats that the Gods of yesteryear couldn’t. For all intents and purposes, they should break stats into eras/generations, to really highlight that everything moving forward is kind of non-compatible with the last 43 seasons in a much more tangible way than the vague “athletes are getting stronger,” or “it’s become a passer-friendly league”.
I’ve said this before, but Eli reminds me of someone like Reggie Jackson or Curt Schilling. Quality career in general, and probably enough to be a fringe Hall of Fame candidate just based on his regular season performances, but he’s so electric in primetime and in the postseason that it puts him over the top without question.
I mostly agree, but without the postseason success, I think “fringe” might be a little too generous. My guess is he would be intentionally stonewalled because of what it would mean for other fringe candidates of his era, like Romo and Rivers. I think he’s a shoe-in solely based on the magical postseason runs. It’s a shame he was never even considered for the MVP in 2011, because that was one hell of a season.
“It’s a shame he was never even considered for the MVP in 2011”
Oh come on – this is a super homer opinion.
2011 Rodgers: 15-1, 4643 YDs, 45 TDs, 6 INTs, 122.5 Passer Rating, 83.8 QBR, 9.39 ANY/A
2011 Brees: 13-3, 5476 YDs, 46 TDs, 14 INTs, 110.6 Passer Rating, 82.3 QBR, 8.23 ANY/A
2011 Brady: 13-3, 5235 YDs, 39 TDs, 12 INTs, 105.6 Passer Rating, 73.8 QBR, 8.25 ANY/A
2011 Manning: 9-7, 4933 YDs, 29 TDs, 16 INTs, 92.9 Passer Rating, 64.2 QBR, 7.45 ANY/A
And that’s ignoring Romo, Stafford, and Ryan who were all in the same ballpark as Manning and arguably better. In no universe did Manning deserve consideration for MVP in 2011 – even in the very best season of his career he was well short of the best passers in the league in pretty much any category worth.
(But he led 5 4th quarter comebacks! Cool, so did Tim Tebow. Play better earlier in the game.)
His VALUE to his team that year was enormous, but yea, throw stats out and call me a homer. It’s not the “Most Statistically Achieving Award,” although I concede they’re given out like that.
If the NFL decided to properly determine a player’s VALUE, they would look less at gaudy stats and put more thought into how the team functions when they’re absent. We never saw Eli miss a game in those years, but the Packers and Patriots routinely played without Brady and Rodgers. And those teams didn’t miss a beat, so we know they weren’t the only cogs making those machines run.
Eli dragged the 2011 team kicking and screaming into the playoffs, overcoming a 27th ranked defense and a slew of injuries. Since you seem to like stats, according to PFF, he had the 2nd best Super Bowl performance by a QB, EVER. His 2007 game is 11th. There is a STRONG argument to be made that his value to the Giants was greater than any other QB you listed that year, especially if they were able to take the playoffs into account (I am aware they do not), where Rodgers engaged in his annual Playoff Double Choke.
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-every-super-bowl-performance-quarterback
Again, not saying he should have won it by a country mile, just that it’s a shame he wasn’t more strongly considered, because he absolutely deserved to be in that conversation.
>”Eli dragged the 2011 team kicking and screaming into the playoffs, overcoming a 27th ranked defense and a slew of injuries.”
To be fair, Brady and Rodgers’ defenses weren’t anything particularly special either in 2011. Brady’s was 15th in points, 31st in yards, and 30th in DVOA% while Rodgers’ was 18th in points, 32nd in yards, and 26th in DVOA%. I’m not knocking Eli here though, given that his defense was 25th in points, 27th in yards, and 21st in DVOA%, but all three effectively willed very bad defenses way further than they should have ever come close to going, and Rodgers and Brady achieved far more regular season success than Eli did, which the voters value more.
I can’t speak on Green Bay’s health that year, but New England was also severely hampered by injuries all season as well, most notably Rob Gronkowski being hurt for much of the postseason including that Super Bowl. Given that context, I do believe that it’s fair to say that Brady had the better season, though Eli absolutely outclassed him in the Super Bowl. Maybe he should have been in the MVP convo a bit more, but given the insane outputs by Rodgers, Brady *and* Drew Brees, I get why he got left out.
>”Eli miss a game in those years, but the Packers and Patriots routinely played without Brady and Rodgers. And those teams didn’t miss a beat, so we know they weren’t the only cogs making those machines run.”
In 2011? Or just in general? Because in 2011 Brady played all 16 games while Rodgers played in 15.
If we’re talking in general, neither Green Bay nor New England have had much success without their franchise signal callers. New England missed the playoffs both times Brady was gone for a full season and Green Bay completely fell apart and snapped their consecutive playoff streak the last time Rodgers missed significant time due to injury. Both teams might be able to avoid a top 10 draft pick without their QBs but they are very far from being contenders without them. They definitely missed beats.
Maybe I’m not explaining myself well. I don’t think it’s criminal Eli didn’t get MVP, or that justice wasn’t served. A lot of players had stellar seasons, to your point, but I just think it’s unfortunate that the pundits never really gave him credit for that year until after it ended. I get why it happened, but it’s still a shame, in the “It’s a shame you didn’t call me before going to the movies, because I would have gone with you,” kind of way. Nobody is throwing punches over it… it’s just a shame.
As for Brady/Rodgers injuries, I definitely wouldn’t include last year, because there were so many other factors at play, and the Pats weren’t very good the year prior even with Brady. But when the Pats were in their prime, BB took those guys to 11-5 in 2008 without Brady for the full season. Playoffs or not, I’d call that a rousing success for a backup QB who never went on to success anywhere else, and they went 3-1 with Jimmy G & Brisket (Mmm) when Brady was suspended in ’16. I’m not saying they lit the world on fire, but they functioned in a way that the 2011 Colts without Peyton did not; 2-14 was a precipitous drop. Green Bay didn’t have as large a window of success without Rodgers, but Matt Flynn had a few stellar performances, include that one game where he threw for just under 500 yards and set a franchise record for TDs in the process. They’re not huge windows, especially in the case of the Packers, but they still show teams that are able to function in their absence.
I agree with you on the first point. 2011 was an extremely strange year in general. Multiple 5000 yard passers. Multiple guys with 40+ TD passes and another with 39. In practically any other year, Eli Manning at least gets a nod for MVP just from his production that season alone, if he doesn’t outright win it, but he just so happened to have a peak season at the same time as other notable QBs had peak seasons of their own and got overlooked as a result.
To you second point, I think it kind of lacks context and undersells the quality of the quarterbacks that took over the teams you’re referencing. The 2008 Patriots replaced Tom Brady with Matt Cassel, who would go on to have a productive season in Kansas City and earn a pro bowl spot after leading them to the playoffs in 2010. He wasn’t great, but he had proven to be a serviceable starter and quality backup when given opportunities, remaining in the league for a full decade after 2008 before calling it quits. Similarly, Jimmy G led another team to a Super Bowl after leaving New England, and proved himself to be a more than capable starter. Brissett was very bad in his two starts in New England, but even then he was still an okay starter for the Colts and has also proven to be a very serviceable backup.
2020 was a weird season for the Pats, but if we’re applying the logic of using records without franchise QBs, then it must be counted. Sure, Brady struggled in 2019, but he was nowhere near as awful as Cam Newton was and the team still won 12 games with him in the lineup. That 5 win regression was primarily due to the loss of Brady and replacing him with a significantly worse QB, not losing Dont’a Hightower because of COVID opt-outs.
Matt Flynn was also a pretty decent backup for Green Bay. Nothing special, but if you stick him out there against a bad team like Detroit, he’ll do wonders. The only other time Rodgers missed significant time, GB started Brett Hundley, and well, yeah, we saw how that went. The 2017 Packers are a much closer comparison to the 2011 Colts if you ask me, because they replaced their QB with a garbage pail (Hundley never started a game after 2017 and has been out of the league since 2019).
The 2011 Colts meanwhile replaced Peyton Manning with Curtis Painter, Kerry Collins and Dan Orlovsky for all of 2011. Painter would never start another game and was out of the league by 2013. Orlovsky similarly would go on to never start another game and was out of the league by 2015. And Collins would go on to retire after the 2011 season aged 39. None had any success following the 2011 season and all were out of football entirely in less than 5 years.
TL;DR – The Patriots and Packers replaced all time greats with serviceable backups who could absolutely fill in as relief players while the Colts replaced their all time great with literal garbage. Given that they jumped back to an 11-5 record as soon as they brought in Andrew Luck, I think it’s fair to say that the team itself wasn’t as terrible as people think. Yeah, Andrew Luck was a spectacular QB, but he was no Peyton Manning and I don’t believe that pointing to the team records paints a clear picture of what happened in those seasons.
I hope Ben sucks this year too, Dave. And I hope the Steelers do a Derek Jeter and just let him do a victory lap of pure suck so the Browns can sweep them for once.
One thing’s for sure: both Rivers and Ryan Fitzpatrick are first-ballot inductees to the Fertility Hall of Fame
I miss early career Rivers and Broncos era Jay Cutler sniping at each other during games. I think Cutty would have had a marginally to moderately better career if he got to face off against him twice a year.
Dave it’s the offseason… Matt might not deserve it but what else could happen? Just give him a pity comic since the offseason sucks
it’s beneath his standards, it would be a too shaubby.
It sucked to see Rivers go out like he did. This past year in Indianapolis created a giant ‘what-if’ scenario for the back half of his career. What if the Chargers committed to getting him some damn help along the offensive line? What if he had more competent coaching down the stretch? He showed that he still had a little something left, and it’s a shame that he finally had those questions answered when it was basically too late. At least he went out on a solid note. A quietly good final season before calling it a career. Can’t hate that.
His HoF case is non-existent though. Having gaudy volume stats in a pass-friendly era is not enough to get you into the Hall nowadays, and not having a single All-Pro award, let alone a championship, is basically a death sentence. Prime candidate for the Hall of Very Good.
couldn’t have said it better. perennial replacement-level-top-twelve(ish)-QB is respectable, but not HOF
What about Witten? Or are retirement comics reserved for the qbs
Oh yeah and brees
Dave, you did right by Rivers with your comic. But then you went and put words to it.
I must vehemently disagree with the notion that Rivers and Eli are nearly the same QB. The ONLY thing that ties them together is the draft / trade. You and Big Bluberries up there are clearly biased towards Eli, and as you stated, didn’t pay much attention to Rivers (because it was easy to). So my words may be a bit biased the other way, but someone needs to provide a counterpoint here, and there are really only two of us Chargers fans, so I’ll step up.
In just 6 more starts (240 vs 234), Rivers has:
– significantly better completion % (64.9 vs 60.3)
– more than 6000 more yards (63,440 vs 57,023)
– 55 more TDs (421 vs 366)
– 35 less INTs (209 vs 244)
– a staggering 11.1 points higher career passer rating (95.2 vs 84.1).
As a matter of fact, Eli’s BEST season had a passer rating of 93.6. Rivers put up a 105.5 rating THREE TIMES, each time 5 years apart (2008, 2013, 2018) and has FIVE seasons of over 100 rating. Eli couldn’t even do that once. In fact, Eli’s BEST passer rating season can’t even match Rivers’ CAREER passer rating.
Calling them similar players is beyond insulting.
We all know that Eli’s whole HoF case rests on his championships, which is largely a result of the efforts of the team around him. If Rivers gets in, it will be for his individual accomplishments, which you totally sweep under the rug with your points above.
Thanks for doing some of the leg work. In addition to what you mentioned if you dive in to the more nebulous advanced rate stats that compare quarterbacks to what other quarterbacks did that year, Eli almost always grades out as league average. He has a few seasons of above average, and a few seasons below average. Rivers has one season of below average (2012), and other wise almost always grades out as above average for a given year. He even has a couple seasons of near MVP level play.
Eli is getting in to the Hall on name recognition and championships. Rivers is not getting in due to a lack of team success. There is no need to try to equate the two players to try and make it seem fair. Plenty of better players than Terry Bradshaw have not made the Hall of Fame.
Now hold on there, partner. I acknowledge – readily – that Rivers had a more steady regular season career. Eli was worse than him statistically several times. NONE of that ultimately matters, because NOBODY is saying Eli should be in the HoF for what he did in the regular season. For better or worse, Eli put it together in the postseason twice, and the one benefit of Tom Brady getting crowned for all the things he didn’t do, is that we can now do the same for Eli.
Dude has 2 Superbowl MVPs, had two of the most clutch Super Bowl throws ever, he beat the “greatest” player to ever play the position and the greatest coach – TWICE – and at the time, the Giants set a record for road victories, and Eli had set a record for 4th quarter comebacks. He’s the only QB to beat an 18-0 team, he beat Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers in Lambeau, Matt Ryan, Tony Romo, SF’s killer D… the worst QB he beat was Jeff Garcia with the Bucs in 07.
If you think ANYONE voting for HoF players is pulling out a magnifying glass to admire regular season stats, you are nuts. Rivers can be the better statistical player all he wants. He mostly faded out in the postseason, even in the early years when he had all those lovely players the Chargers acquired when they fleeced the Giants. And yet Eli shined. THAT is what matters to HoF voters.
If you are in the Super Bowl and you need 1 drive to win it, I will almost GUARANTEE you, if the only two choices are Eli or Rivers, NOBODY will pick Rivers outside of Chargers fans or one of his 45 children. Them is just the facts.
“If you think ANYONE voting for HoF players is pulling out a magnifying glass to admire regular season stats, you are nuts.”
Of course they are. At the risk of getting kicked out of Dolphins fandom, Dan Marino’s in because he led the league in all regular season quarterback stats when he retired. Goodness knows it wasn’t because of his postseason resume.
Also, saying that Rivers had a more steady regular season career is a huge understatement. Rivers had a stretch of truly dominant play from 08-10, when he led the league in Y/A and was top 5 in both passer rating and TDs. Eli never had such a stretch or close to it. He had the better achievement, sure. I’m sure if you asked Rivers if he’d give up those three seasons for two Lombardis, he’d take the Lombardis before you were done asking. The point is that Eli and Rivers aren’t similar at all.
Dan Marino was also an MVP, an eight (!) time all pro, and nine time pro bowler.
You are correct, and I probably should have expanded on that. I am a longwinded blowhard, so I try (and often fail) to cut my words where I can. =D
What I meant is that nobody is pulling out a magnifying glass on fringe players to compare their stats if they’re not monstrous. Marino’s stats were monstrous, and I don’t think ANYBODY at any point would have questioned his going into the HoF. Dude was a slam dunk, whereas people like Rivers and Eli don’t even sniff the Hall of Fame without major postseason success.
As for their similarity, or lack thereof… they are VERY similar in that neither of them have a strong claim to the HoF based on their regular season stats. But Eli achieved massively in the postseason, and that matters.
You are talking about the both post season runs of Eli which were incredible and they were incredible. But if you look at the rest of his career those two season look like huge outliers. Outside of 2007 and 2011, Eli never won a playoff game. Sometimes it’s a little bit of momentum. If you cobine Joe flaccos 2012 run and Foles 2017 run you would get the same.
Rivers on the other side had soe incredible bad luck in regular season and post season. In 2010 the Chargers had a top 10 offense and defense (By yards both were no. 1 but yards is not the best metric if you ask me). But their special was comically bad. It waa maybe the worst special of all time.
For post season bad luck, only 3 words: Marlon fucking McCree.
jon bois did an vid/article on the 2010 chargers being the most unlucky great team of all time.
oh, here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAL5X3TRA2A
You know, it’s funny that I was prepared to apologize for dragging your name through the mud. I had hastily skimmed the comments on my way to post my own, and then after doing so I re-read your comment and found myself accusing you of bias that wasn’t there.
Then you went and posted your reply, which is dripping with bias, so now I don’t have to.
All of the “accomplishments” that you put on Eli are all TEAM accomplishments. They’re all unique opportunities presented to Eli and his team that they capitalized on. As a TEAM. I mean seriously, to argue that Eli is the only guy to ever beat an 18-0 team? Name one other QB who has had an opportunity to face an 18-0 team. Eli didn’t win that game all by himself.
Rivers, on the other hand had teams decimated with injuries every year. LdT was never healthy during playoffs. Multiple kickers who were objectively great in the regular season just got the yips in the playoffs. Coaches deciding to get a little too conservative at the wrong times. And of course, Marlon fucking McCree. To put the Chargers failures in the playoffs at the feet of Rivers is simply unfair, revisionist history.
If you want to find a more objective way (and I’m not saying a totally objective way here) of comparing the players, you HAVE to dig out the stat book and have a look. And what I’m saying is they’re not nearly as close as you Giants fans seem to think they are. And to say HoF voters don’t care about stats is such a ridiculous thing to say, I don’t have anything to add that anonymous Dolphins fan hasn’t already said.
My reply was intended to be tongue-in-cheek; I will take full blame for it not landing. The part to focus on is: “The one benefit of Tom Brady getting crowned for all the things he didn’t do, is that we can now do the same for Eli.”
In other words, I agree that Eli didn’t singularly accomplish everything I listed, but I listed it like that anyway because it’s fun to give him credit for EVERYTHING! Tom Brady gets credit for his coaches, his defense, his kicker, the refs… Eli should be able to take advantage of that, too. 😉 Saying he beat quarterbacks doesn’t even make any sense since he doesn’t face them, but hey, Tom Brady beats quarterbacks, so Eli did, too! XD
You are still arguing an uphill battle with the stats, though. Whether the stats are close, or far, or anywhere in the middle; it doesn’t really matter. Eli’s accomplishments (which are absolutely rooted in the team around him) were greater than the achievements of Rivers. In lieu of the HoF focusing heavily on accomplishments, I do not believe their statistical differences are something they will look heavily into.
Rivers and Eli, statistically, are BOTH on the fringe of the Hall of Fame. Whether Rivers is slightly less on the fringe? Does. Not. Matter. The only thing opening the door for Eli is his postseason success. Rivers doesn’t have that, and the statistical differences in their career does not make up the gap. (IMO)
>” I agree that Eli didn’t singularly accomplish everything I listed, but I listed it like that anyway because it’s fun to give him credit for EVERYTHING! Tom Brady gets credit for his coaches, his defense, his kicker, the refs… Eli should be able to take advantage of that, too.”
Sorry for the double reply, but this is extremely disingenuous. Eli and Brady aren’t comparable given the vast difference in actual individual accomplishments as players. Brady doesn’t just have 5 more Super Bowl wins; he’s earned more MVPs, All-Pros, and Pro-Bowls, while accumulating significantly better numbers throughout his entire career. Brady’s 1st and 2nd in career passing TDs and passing yards, he’s got a top 10 career passer rating. He leads Eli in every advanced metric known to man by a large margin. He’s consistently voted as the best or one of the best at his position yearly. He’s got more to his name than Eli Manning, so insinuating that Brady is simply riding everyone else taking all the credit is just being dishonest at best.
If you take away the Super Bowl wins from both players, Tom Brady still has an ironclad HoF case. Eli Manning does not. Obviously having 7 Super Bowl wins helps, but Brady’s gassed up the way he is because he’s just really, really good at playing quarterback.
Going back to Philip Rivers vs Eli Manning though, I disagree that Rivers and Eli are in the same boat. Rivers at least has the statistical argument to make his case. Eli Manning is banking on team accomplishments to mask over what was otherwise not a particularly great career. They aren’t really comparable and I think you and Dave are underselling how much better Philip Rivers was as a quarterback. Neither deserve to be in the Hall of Fame but I don’t believe that Philip Rivers getting in should have any impact on Eli Manning’s case and vice versa. Rivers’ case is more comparable to Matt Ryan’s if anything. Not Eli Manning’s.
Rivers’ case is the ultimate argument of whether individual stats should hold weight despite a lack of major team accomplishments and individual awards.
Eli’s case is the ultimate argument of whether rings should hold weight despite a lack of major individual accomplishments and individual awards.
They might seem similar, but they are vastly different when you really look into them.
No worries on the double reply. I want to be clear here – I’m not COMPARING Brady to Eli. At all. I’m taking the general notion, super popular up here in New England pre-2020, where Brady is given credit for 100% of EVERYTHING and all blame is removed from him. Then I’m applying this method to Eli.
Honestly, I thought it was kind of amusing, but who knew it would cause so much outrage? *shrug*
You’re even doing it in your comment. How often do people refer to Brady’s Super Bowl wins as “team accomplishments”? Almost never. Brady won the rings – alone – the only player on the field, his own coach, his own receivers… it was all him. But other qbs don’t get to take credit like that, because for them, it’s just a “team achievement”.
Brady deserves all the credit for the things *he* does, I’m not saying otherwise. But when he throws 3 interceptions on 3 consecutive drives against the Packers last year and his D hangs on to seal the W, it’s more than a little disingenuous for everyone to shout “BRADY BEAT RODGERS! HE’S THE BEST!”
As for Rivers v Eli, arguing stats between players can be like comparing apples and oranges, and Dave does a good job discussing why below. It has *never* been my stance that Eli and Rivers are the same player. Their regular season outputs are both on the outer edge of viability. Don’t confuse “digging further into regular season comparisons is pointless” with “they are the same player.” Whether Rivers is a few inches or a few miles up the ladder, neither of them have an airtight case on regular season alone. Eli’s candidacy hinges on the 2 Super Bowl runs. Again, I’m not saying whether or not their regular seasons are similar. I’m saying it makes ZERO difference whether they are when it comes to HoF candidacy.
Ah, apologies for taking it that way. I see your point but I would like to clarify something else;
Tom Brady is not the only QB that gets heavily credited for wins. Every all time great passer (and even other guys) get that treatment because the QB position is most always the face of the team, and thus earns a majority of the credit for their team’s success. Tom Brady has just done so often that he clearly sticks out far more. But the same thing happened with Joe Montana, John Elway, Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers and even guys like Patrick Mahomes and Eli Manning, among others who have won the SB at least once.
Joe Montana was considered the greatest ever for winning 4 Super Bowls but no one mentioned that he was throwing to Dwight Clark, Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Roger Craig, etc. all while being backed up by a top 5 defense for every single one of his championship runs.
No one mentions how stacked the ’97-’99 Broncos were when Elway finally broke his SB hex.
No one mentions how Peyton Manning threw 3TDs and 7INTs while failing to post a passer rating above 82 in the 2006 postseason. All while leaning heavily on his defense that only allowed around 13 points per game and watching Adam Vinatieri boot 14 kicks in 4 games to help lead the Colts to a title.
No one mentions the stacked WR corps Rodgers had in 2010 and the fact that he was backed up by a top 2 defense that bailed him out of a 0 TD, 2INT, 55.4 RTG performance on the road in the NFC Championship Game that season.
No one mentions how loaded KC’s offense is nor how poorly Mahomes played for 3 quarters in Super Bowl 54 before leading a wild comeback in the 4th. Mahomes’ passer rating was 78.1 and he completed less than 60% of his passes while tossing 2 INTs.
I’m not saying that none of these guys deserve credit for those wins, however, because they were all very integral to their teams’ successes even if the stats do not necessarily reflect it.
In all of these cases, people talk about QBs because usually the QB is the singular piece that puts everything together. These teams all may have been able to survive without their franchise guys, but they weren’t contenders without them. I agree that it should go without saying that Super Bowl wins are team accomplishments, but when you look at the catalyst for Tampa Bay winning in 2020, or the entire Patriots dynasty, it’s obviously going to link back to Tom Brady more than anything else, similar to the Montana-led Niners, Manning-led Colts, Rodgers-led Packers, etc.
Is it unfair? Perhaps, but it makes sense why that’s the case. Saying that Tom Brady is the only QB to receive that sort of treatment is false. It happens all the time and will continue to happen because it’s a QB-centric league. It’s not so much a “Tom Brady” problem as it is a general Quarterback problem, and I think we can both agree to that at least.
Remember when I said there would be Chargers fans furious at me for even comparing them
Thanks for proving me right and in your fury kind of ignoring that we basically agree? My literal first point of comparison was about Rivers being consistent where Eli wasn’t. That was my less detailed way to specify exactly what you are so mad about, his stats were better and he played better on a season-to-season and game-to-game basis. I’m looking at the wider picture while you’re deep in the weeds with the details. Maybe we’re both a little off.
Just like Eli, he never truly sniffed MVP or top 3 consideration. He got close a few times but he was always more or less second tier at his best. Maybe Romo is ultimately a better career comparison in this sense but it’s not that unfair. He Has no all-pros, some more pro-bowl selections, and good volume stats. He and Eli also exchanged the ironman streak, which I believe Rivers would still own even if the benching scandal didn’t happen. Outside passer rating they aren’t that far apart in volume stats, both top 10 in TDs and Yards. There are differences between the two and I touched on them but the gulf between them you are trying to portray isn’t actually that big. Rivers was more consistent and played slightly better overall, but they are more similar than different.
We basically agree on what, Dave?
“My literal first point of comparison was” [to say that they were totally different].
Is this a coherent argument to you?
Also I fail to understand the logic when people bring up number of all-pros and pro-bowls, when they also make the same arguments that pro bowls are a joke, and in your own words, “have long been a popularity contest.”
Also, you realize that if Rivers didn’t spend 2 years on the bench behind Drew Brees, that Eli may never have got to hold on to the ironman streak at all?
But to say their stats aren’t that far apart is Giants fan bias. Imagine if Eli came out of retirement, played just 6 games, threw for 1000+ yards in each of them, threw 9 touchdowns per game, and also played defense and intercepted 6 passes per game, and now they’re starting to look comparable. You don’t think that amounts to much of a difference in stats???
And you and Big Bluberries keep conceding that Rivers was more consistent, but that’s not my argument at all. I’m saying in a vaccuum, when you pull the teams and circumstances out of the picture and just look at the two individual players, Rivers was CLEARLY better.
Well then I guess we do disagree, because while I think Rivers was better, I just don’t think he was as much better as you do. You can accuse me of bias all you want, but you are on the other end of the equation on that one, so don’t pretend you’re objective here. We both love our guys. And I certainly understand why any Chargers fan hates Eli and wants to take him down a peg.
You are focusing entirely on the stat gap between the two of them, which does in fact make Rivers look much better. I’m looking at them both in the wider picture, which is why I brought up that despite the gaps in the numbers for TDs and Yards, they are both in the top 10. When I look at them compared to each other in the grand scheme, they aren’t that far apart. Rivers did better, but like, that much better? Not to me at least. And I think he did better because he was more consistent and didn’t go pumpkin as often as Eli did. But they both had their flaws, both led the league in picks multiple times, both played heroics and dumbasses.
I also never wanted to make the vacuum argument because I hate the vacuum argument. You can’t divorce a player from context, which is why I mentioned Rivers had better and longer lasting weaponry to work with than Eli did. You don’t think that played a role in the stat difference? It did. That Eli played in a high risk-reward offensive system didn’t play a role in his INT numbers and lower passer rating? That playing with completely different people under completely different staffs in completely different conferences didn’t play a role in that gap? It sure as hell did, but it’s an impossible thing to quantify, so it isn’t worth going into detail about, which is why I do not focus so closely on the minutia of stat differences. They both had great careers. They were both incredible ironmen, regardless of who would have held it at the end without the 2 years on the bench or the McAdoo incident. They both had flaws. They are more alike than not.
Also Eli had a close call with the time when Hufnagel was a offensive coordinator. It says a lot when Gilbride was an improvement over the guy. It’s pretty doubtful Rivers would have fare any better under similar situation as well, including under Gilbride’s system.
Matt Schaub appreciation post
He is the best QB in Franchise history for Houston (and it appears Watson will not surpass him), played well enough in the journeyman role for several years, and made over 100 Million in his career. That 2004 class was just mind-blowingly talented.
he was even good enough to be a patriot
just messin with ya. schaub was a good guy, by all accounts.
As a lifelong Chiefs fan, I hated Rivers for close to 15 years up until a few years ago. He was always pretty good, but from 2004-2013, he especially had the Chiefs’ number, going 15-5 against us. To rub it in, all his trash-talking antics really got on my nerves, because he would NEVER let up.
But then over his last six years in San Diego/Los Angeles, the roles reversed completely, and the Chiefs won 11 of their last 12 games against him. Now that they’ve been able to exorcise that demon, and I got to watch him play in Indy for a year without having to root for a division rival, I loved watching him play. Now that he’s gone, I can sincerely say I will miss Phil Rivers. Football will be a much less fun game to watch week in and week out without him.
Rivers is very much “Hall of very good” imo which is squarely where Eli would be were it not for the two super bowl wins, fair or not. I don’t really think either of them should get in, just because I personally don’t think rings should hold as much value as they actually do, but I def think Rivers was overall a better quarterback. But not even sniffing the top 5 at his position at just about any point I feel is pretty indicative of his career. I think Dave put it well, he was always just outside the top tier, never really in it. I don’t know that you can make the hall fundamentally without at least being one of the top guys in your era on yards and TDs alone.
Rivers and the Chargers were massively overrated every year and fell short of those expectations every year. If Rivers even sniffs the Hall of Fame it’s just recency bias at work. Me being a Broncos fan might have something to do with the severity of this opinion
Dave, I really needed this today.
Thank you.
If Eli was actually Rivers with two rings, either he is a slam dunk Hall of Famer or Rivers has absolutely no chance. Neither is true, and that’s because Eli and Rivers had two very different careers. It’s honestly a classic case of stats/regular season vs rings/postseason.